Author Topic: 1.6td tune up info needed  (Read 534 times)

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wobster

  • Posts: 195
1.6td tune up info needed
« on: Jul 24, 17, 11:09 »
im staring to issues with warm starts.  takes a long time before it finally catches and runs.
i noticed 2 of the glow plugs  closest to the inject pump look older than the last 2.  do i have to remove the pump to get at them or is there enough room to get them out?

need some recommendations on shops that can get my injectors pop tested  or rebuilt?

also if anyone is able to help me time my injector pump i could pay for their services.

 located in north surrey.. Thx


aba16v

  • Posts: 909
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #1 on: Jul 24, 17, 11:24 »
Simons auto in langley has a pop tester setup and has been putting together some sets of ALH nozzles, sure he can figure it out. Don't really need glow plugs to fire one of these motors in these temps, especially when they're warm. It's more likely to be internal resistance in the starter which is more prevalent when warm. Try boosting it sometime to see if that helps with the start. I'm sure he can do pump timing too, been working on these for awhile.

Have probably already seen this, plenty of resources out there though http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=28   

If you're starting to have issues and nothing else changed, odds are a part is failing rather than timing falling out of spec. Once set these pumps are usually good for life.

leeg

  • Posts: 2580
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #2 on: Jul 24, 17, 13:31 »
you should not have to remove the pump, but you will have to remove the hard injector lines.  They are easy to re&re, but bleed them before you try to start it again.
Before you do the plugs, double check you are getting power to the glo plug bus bar.  It would suck to swap the plugs then discover you had a bad fuse or relay. Since you are still getting it fired up still you probably have some working glow plugs. 
I politely disagree with aba16v....these engines need working plugs to start easily.  my experience is 1 dead plug = hard to start, 2 dead = no start.  it gets worse in winter or if your compression is low.

forums on vwdiesel dot net is your friend for all things IDI

wobster

  • Posts: 195
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #3 on: Jul 27, 17, 17:18 »
thanks for all the info. 

i really need to get this starting issue worked out soon.  when cold it starts up decently
but when hot, and i try to restart it, sometimes it would crank for over 10 seconds before it starts and a big cloud of dark grey smoke would come out the tail pipe

i was reading that if i advance the pump timing a bit it might help with the hot starts.  are there any shops or people who can help me do this?
or does it sound like a bad injector?
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 17, 23:19 by wobster »

leeg

  • Posts: 2580
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #4 on: Jul 28, 17, 13:49 »
I would not mess with the pump timing unless you have reason to believe it might be wrong.  If it is set properly when the timing belt is changed it should not need adjusting. 
You just need a dial indicator to check and set it.  The procedure is not hard.  You can buy the specific dial indicator for less than paying someone to do it.  Or you can make it work with a generic dial indicator and some fiddling with mounting it.

Hot start issue could be a worn out injection pump that can't make pressure out of hot fuel at cranking speed, you could try pouring cold water over the pump it to see if it starts after the pump is cooled.  The cloud of smoke on hot start tends to indicate the pump is getting pressure to the injectors.

It could be increased electrical resistance causing slow cranking speed when hot, does it crank over at normal speed hot?  Does a jump start with good battery direct to starter help?  Will it start easier if you roll start it rather than use the starter

It could still be glo plugs, they come one when you turn the key regardless of temperature.  IDI engines need heat right in the injection cup to start.  Try jumping power direct to the glow plug bus next hot start, give it 10-15 seconds then crank it. 

It could be worn injectors that are not atomizing fuel properly, but I'd expect that to be worse cold.

it could be a combination of things too.  how many km on this engine?

wobster

  • Posts: 195
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #5 on: Aug 08, 17, 07:19 »
thx u guys for all the info.  u diesel guys are really helpful and kind to share your experiences    -  has 301km on the motor and just put in a new fuel filter a week ago.

on cold starts there is quite a lot of black smoke on startup compared to my friend's mk2 td.  i think it might be bad injector or glow plug.  how do i know if my injec pump is getting bad or if i am low compression?  for compression is it how strong the engine braking when in gear and going downhill? 

when cranking it goes at a good fast speed hot or cold, but sometimes i notice the voltage drops pretty low to 8v, so i installed a voltage gauge and manual switch to give more current to the fuel shut off valve and that kept it going.   when i first got it it would stall out after a while and also not start but after giving straight power to the valve it would start when it wouldn't want to start normally.

  a few times when car was warm, i roll started it rather than use the starter and it started right away.  if it was a newer car i would suspect a crank position sensor, but im pretty sure this oldie doesn't have one.

i have another set of injectors i could try on the car to see how it runs. or i could run a can of diesel purge thru the injectors again.
 and also will try to do the inner 2 glow plugs that are hard to get at.   will double check the glow plug fuse also

where can i get  the specific dial indicator?  if n e one of u r free i want to try to time the pump to  1mm to 1.25mm
also want to change the timing belt soon.  i have done 2.0 gassers, but never tackled a diesel yet.
previous owners took the car to gordan's in langley to get some head work done.  i will swing by his place and see if he remembers the car.

 

leeg

  • Posts: 2580
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #6 on: Aug 08, 17, 12:00 »
> 301km on the motor
With regular oil changes, a fuel filter every couple years and a timing belt every 100km, these engines should be good for 400,000+    If it hasn't had frequent oil changes it could be well trashed at 301km

>on cold starts there is quite a lot of black smoke on startup compared to my friend's mk2 td. 
>i think it might be bad injector or glow plug. 
If it has been running Canadian commercial diesel all it's life the injectors should be OK at 300k km.  I'd check the glo plugs first.  bad injector is likely to smoke at other times too, not just cold.

>how do i know if my injec pump is getting bad or if i am low compression? 
Injection pumps are pretty bullet proof, except for external leaks.  If your's is not leaking I'd look elsewhere first.  Testing it requires removal and a specialized shop.
Engine compression test just requires a diesel compression gauge and VW adapter.

Voltage drop to 8V is pretty low. 
Needing to run a separate switch to fuel shutoff is also strange.  The fuel solenoid does not take much current, so I wonder if it was getting zero current sometimes.  Ignition switch or glow plug relay (I think the fuel solenoid gets power via glow plug relay on mk2s)

>a few times when car was warm, i roll started it rather than use the starter and it started right away. 
>if it was a newer car i would suspect a crank position sensor, but im pretty sure this oldie doesn't have one.
no sensors on your car at all except for water temp and oil pressure.  Everything else is mechanical.
Success with roll start when it was not crank starting seems to indicate an electrical or starter issue, but you sound mechanical enough to notice if it was cranking slower for hot starts.

>i have another set of injectors i could try on the car to see how it runs. or i could run a can of diesel purge
> thru the injectors again.  and also will try to do the inner 2 glow plugs that are hard to get at.   
IMHO nothing that comes in a can will fix your problems, diesel fuel is a pretty good solvent all by itself so the fuel system is not likely to be gunked up with anything hope-in-a-can can dislodge.

>where can i get  the specific dial indicator? 
Here is one place https://www.partsplaceinc.com/vw-injection-pump-dial-indicator-3508.html
I got mine on flee bay, but lent it to a guy that never returned it.  But I don't have a diesel right now and he does....  if you look at the picture...if you have a dial indicator that has a pin as long as those threads plus the exposed part of the pin, and a way to clamp it inline with the pump, you don't need the special tool. 

>also want to change the timing belt soon.  i have done 2.0 gassers, but never tackled a diesel yet.
you will find nice write ups over at vwdiesel dot net.  It is not a hard job on the 1.6td.  You just need a way to measure the timing of the pump

In your shoes I'd look at these items in this order,
glow plugs -make sure they all work and are coming on for hot starts
cranking speed -try jump start next time you have a hard hot start
fuel delivery -next time it won't start crack loose one of the injector lines to see if you are getting fuel pressure when you crank
Engine compression -but I'd expect greater issues with cold start if you have low compression
Injector spray pattern / pressure -
fuel timing -if it runs well otherwise this is probably not an issue for hot starts

wobster

  • Posts: 195
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #7 on: Aug 08, 17, 19:28 »
just finished up working on it today.  changed the first 2 glow plugs and noticed the second one was a bit wet with fuel. 
so i yanked out the injector but only the top half came off.  a spring fell out and washer.  i  fished out the other parts out with a magnet but the last peice, outside the long injector pin was in super tight,  put a 27mm socket on it and got the whole injector out and that piece i couldn't fish out, i tapped it with a hammer and it had carbon all around it.

i then yanked out injector 4 and it was also the same with the carbon build up.

is it normal like this or should i also clean up injector 1 and 3?

do the glow plugs also heat up on hot starts or no?  because sometimes when i cycle the ignition a few times when hot, it does the trick to get the car started
« Last Edit: Aug 08, 17, 19:36 by wobster »

leeg

  • Posts: 2580
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #8 on: Aug 08, 17, 22:06 »
The plug should not be wet if the last thing the engine did was run, so this might be a dribbling injector.

You can test injector spray by cranking it over with the injector attached to the hard line and in a cup....need a fine spray cone, not a stream.

Sounds like you need to try your other set of injectors now.  Are you putting the socket on the large, lower hex?  you want to undo the injector from the head, not take the injector apart. 
If you need a socket, take an injector to Can Tire, there is a Motorcraft maximum deep impact socket that is a perfect fit, room for the ears and everything, it lis like $12.

Carbon build up could indicate faulty injector spray.  Can you get the washers out fron the injector seats?  They are supposed to be single use.

Glow plugs should cycle for every start, hot or cold.  The glow plug relay gets a feed from water temp sensor and runs the plugs for a shorter time when hot, but they come on for every start

wobster

  • Posts: 195
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #9 on: Aug 09, 17, 17:00 »
i used a 22mm wrench to take out the injectors,  i didn't know i could not reuse the washers.  do i need to take them out and get new ones? i notice a bit of black smoke going uphill now compared 2 before.   is that a sign of washers not sealing properly?

if i test out the injector on the hard line do i just bend the line or do i need to get another one for testing purposes?

i took apart one of the good injectors and there as no carbon build up of the lower half of the injector nozzle of the inside of the injector bottom.  it was easy to slide out.     is there a video or a write up on how these injectors work?  the spring and ports and needle all look so interesting but not too sure how they function.  i found this and very gd info  -
 http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=28

i will try to get my hands on another relay and see how it runs on hot starts. 
« Last Edit: Aug 10, 17, 09:18 by wobster »

leeg

  • Posts: 2580
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #10 on: Aug 11, 17, 10:36 »
The washers under the injectors are both a sealing surface and a heat shield.  They deform on use and may not reliably seal again...ignition pressures may force carbon up the threads.

The injectors are pretty simple, when injection pump pressure gets high enough to overcome the spring pressure the injector is forced open and sprays a fine mist of fuel out the end.  The spring pressure is adjusted with little shim washers to set the injector release pressure within an allowable range.  Too much pressure = less fuel and harder to start, too little pressure = more fuel & more heat.  bad spray pattern = poor combustion and potential for head destroying localized heat.  Poor internal seals in the injector = more fuel bypassing back to the pump, possible leaks outside of injector, less fuel injected and injection starting later in the timing cycle, hard starting.

If you had the injector apart it may be leaking or not opening at the same pressure.  The link you show above describes how the injectors seal internally, if they have wear on the sealing surfaces, taking them apart and putting back together may affect the seal.  You should remove injectors from the head with a deep socket (27 mm or 1 1/16 I think) on the lower part of the injector body, not by turning the upper part of the injector.

With the hard lines off the injectors and loosened at the pump you should be able to rotate one up enough to use it to test an injector spray pattern.  this won't test the pop pressure.

Have you confirmed you have 4 working glow plugs and that they come on when you turn the key for a hot start?

Audidoodi

  • Posts: 683
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #11 on: Aug 11, 17, 12:18 »
The washers under the injectors are both a sealing surface and a heat shield.  They deform on use and may not reliably seal again...ignition pressures may force carbon up the threads.

The injectors are pretty simple, when injection pump pressure gets high enough to overcome the spring pressure the injector is forced open and sprays a fine mist of fuel out the end.  The spring pressure is adjusted with little shim washers to set the injector release pressure within an allowable range.  Too much pressure = less fuel and harder to start, too little pressure = more fuel & more heat.  bad spray pattern = poor combustion and potential for head destroying localized heat.  Poor internal seals in the injector = more fuel bypassing back to the pump, possible leaks outside of injector, less fuel injected and injection starting later in the timing cycle, hard starting.

If you had the injector apart it may be leaking or not opening at the same pressure.  The link you show above describes how the injectors seal internally, if they have wear on the sealing surfaces, taking them apart and putting back together may affect the seal.  You should remove injectors from the head with a deep socket (27 mm or 1 1/16 I think) on the lower part of the injector body, not by turning the upper part of the injector.

With the hard lines off the injectors and loosened at the pump you should be able to rotate one up enough to use it to test an injector spray pattern.  this won't test the pop pressure.

Have you confirmed you have 4 working glow plugs and that they come on when you turn the key for a hot start?

What material are the washers made from? If they are copper, they can be re-annealed and reused without any issues. In fact, it's good practice to anneal copper washers even right out of the box as the manufacturing process creates a lot of stress on the copper.

Sorry to interject in the discussion. Good read. Thought maybe I could help as I work on large diesels for a living.
1996 Audi UrS6 - The Ongoing Project (Samco Boost Hoses, VVME 4300K 35W HIDs, TFSI Coil Conversion, Apikol Diff. Mount, Apikol/Poly Rear Subframe + Rear End Bushings, HPR Motor and Trans mounts, Bilstein Sports + H&R 29800s, Avid.1 AV-20 18x8.5 wheels, Conti DWS06 tires)
2017 VW Golf Sportwagen 1.8T - Family Wagen
1986 Audi Coupe GT - Tornado Red (SOLD)

sdubfid

  • Posts: 138
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #12 on: Aug 12, 17, 20:40 »
I have a mitutoyo timing indicator and the timing tools and about 8 1.6td injectors and also a set of gtd nozzles I believe.  Will sell if anyone's interested.
suzuki sidekick powered by vw

leeg

  • Posts: 2580
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #13 on: Aug 14, 17, 09:46 »
What material are the washers made from? If they are copper, they can be re-annealed and reused without any issues. In fact, it's good practice to anneal copper washers even right out of the box as the manufacturing process creates a lot of stress on the copper.
They do not look like copper.  I've read of people reshaping them for re-use, or just re-using them as-is.  The engine will run fine regardless, but the long term affect could be a ruined head. 
They are cheap to replace.

Commuter Boy

  • Posts: 236
Re: 1.6td tune up info needed
« Reply #14 on: Aug 25, 17, 19:27 »
The washers are a hard steel.  No annealing them.  They're like $1.00 each at VM Autohaus.

Step one:  buy a set of four new washers.

Step two:  pop the injector lines off and take out the injectors, and remove the washers. 

Step three: cycle the glow plugs, and look down the injector holes to see if they're working.  They will glow cherry red in a few seconds.

That will tell you what's working and what's not.  I've got the right tools here (including the handy dandy 17mm Hazmet wrench for doing the lines) and a dial indicator if you want to check the timing spec at the same time.  Always happy to point someone in the right direction for beer.